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    Schrodinger's cat

    So, I get that Schrodinger came up with a thought experiment to disprove the common interpretation of quantum mechanics. Some have claimed that it wasn't so much an experiment, as an illustration. Nonetheless, we all know the gist of Schrodinger's cat. But, it isn't that the cat is both dead and alive (everyone typically agrees that it's a ridiculous position lol), it's the possibility of the cat being dead or alive until one observes its actual state, that Schrodinger was trying to illustrate. What do you think? And why can't the cat be the observer? ?

    In a way, I disagree because if the cat is dead, it's dead whether or not I observe it, right? But, is Schrodinger basically saying that we should always caution towards believing that both states are possible...the cat could be dead, but he could be alive...and until we as the observers see it for ourselves, it's not a sure thing?

    Last edited by Deidre; 07-17-2021, 07:00 PM.

    #2
    Originally posted by Deidre View Post
    And why can't the cat be the observer?
    because it might be dead?

    Comment


    • neonspectraltoast
      neonspectraltoast commented
      Editing a comment
      Who says you need to have a body to observe? We are darkness observing. Cats know.

    • Deidre
      Deidre commented
      Editing a comment
      neonspectraltoast - what do you mean by “darkness?” I’m intrigued.

    • neonspectraltoast
      neonspectraltoast commented
      Editing a comment
      We're the sentient outer space cloaked in chemicals.

      Look into the black pits of my eyes and you will know this to be true. Darkness is awareness, when we are most aware. Reality is light and light condensed into matter.

    #3
    The cat can interfere with the device measuring the subatomic particles unless it’s secured (think a metal box). Otherwise The disturbance by the cat will collapse the superposition of the particles. So it’s not that Schrodinger didn’t think the cat couldn’t observe it, the experiment was designed to prevent it.

    I find the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics non-intuitive as well. I prefer the many worlds interpretation. So instead of the cat being alive or dead until it’s observed, the cat is always both alive or dead. You’ve ‘simply’ shifted into a new reality once you’ve observed it.

    As weird as quantum mechanics is, there are things in your home which rely on quantum mechanics to function, like a flash drive. There’s this Neil De Grasse Tyson “The universe is under no obligation to make sense to us”

    Also: “Get in the DeLorean Deidre, it’s time to kill Hitler”

    Comment


      #4
      Thought experiments are illustrations that may highlight the absurdity of a position or claim but the thought experiment in-and-of-itself doesn't disprove said position. Schrödinger's Cat is meant to highlight the absurdity of the Copanhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, which takes The Uncertainty Principle and Wave Function collapse at face value. From that interpretation, the Cat really does exist in a superposition of states (both alive and dead) until it is observed.

      Originally posted by Deidre View Post
      if the cat is dead, it's dead whether or not I observe it, right?
      If the cat is a definite state (i.e. dead) then it has been observed and the wave function collapsed, this "black box" of nature preventing conditionals like this is why QM is often described as weird.

      From my understanding, the Uncertainty Principle appears to be a brute fact. Perhaps it is contingent on something more fundamental but I don't believe any solid alternatives have been offered up. It's the notion of Wave Function Collapse and what the Wave Function represents in general that seems to be much more tenuous.

      Comment


        #5
        I never really understood why physicists make this so hard. The Universe is non-deterministic, so the outcome of quantum processes can't be predicted in advance. The cat in the box is just an example. It's not the same as saying that the cat is both dead and alive, just that it can't be predicted using the laws of nature as we currently understand them. QM is good enough, however, to make cell phones and stuff work so we use it.

        Relativity has pathologies also. The singularity at the center of black holes is an example of where predictability fails. Our current understanding of gravity is good enough to do the things we like to do though, like launching projectiles at one another.

        Comment


        • Deidre
          Deidre commented
          Editing a comment
          @tumblingdice - I think that’s exactly why Schrodinger designed this experiment. QM isn’t the problem, it’s our lack of understanding. We make it complicated although to be fair, it’s kinda complicated lol

        #6
        The like feature is so needed right now.

        Comment


          #7
          Originally posted by Deidre View Post
          The like feature is so needed right now.
          You can enable it if you want. I'm not sure how, tho. Audiogen ? Undies ?

          Comment


          • Deidre
            Deidre commented
            Editing a comment
            I’ve read that it’s in settings but I can’t see where.

          #8
          Deidre Go to the bottom of the screen, select "Grunge" from the drop down menu.

          Click image for larger version

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            #9
            tumbling.dice Wow, it’s already selected but I can’t like posts and only rarely, can I see if a member has liked mine. Well, this is a conundrum. ?

            Comment


              #10
              Originally posted by Deidre View Post
              tumbling.dice Wow, it’s already selected but I can’t like posts and only rarely, can I see if a member has liked mine. Well, this is a conundrum. ?
              Then I do not know.

              Comment


                #11
                Originally posted by Deidre View Post
                tumbling.dice Wow, it’s already selected but I can’t like posts and only rarely, can I see if a member has liked mine. Well, this is a conundrum. ?
                There's Grunge (has likes) and Grunge 2.0 (no likes) are you on Grunge 2.0?

                Comment


                  #12
                  Originally posted by tumbling.dice View Post
                  I never really understood why physicists make this so hard. The Universe is non-deterministic, so the outcome of quantum processes can't be predicted in advance. The cat in the box is just an example. It's not the same as saying that the cat is both dead and alive, just that it can't be predicted using the laws of nature as we currently understand them. QM is good enough, however, to make cell phones and stuff work so we use it.
                  The gist of the thought experiment is how objects (particles) go from a Quantum state to a Classical state. If it were just demonstrating that the Universe is non-deterministic, than the outcome of the Cat having disappeared when the box was opened surely would've been included.

                  Comment


                    #13
                    Heyyyy, I can see the likes now. ?

                    Comment


                      #14
                      Originally posted by lode View Post
                      The cat can interfere with the device measuring the subatomic particles unless it’s secured (think a metal box). Otherwise The disturbance by the cat will collapse the superposition of the particles. So it’s not that Schrodinger didn’t think the cat couldn’t observe it, the experiment was designed to prevent it.

                      I find the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics non-intuitive as well. I prefer the many worlds interpretation. So instead of the cat being alive or dead until it’s observed, the cat is always both alive or dead. You’ve ‘simply’ shifted into a new reality once you’ve observed it.

                      As weird as quantum mechanics is, there are things in your home which rely on quantum mechanics to function, like a flash drive. There’s this Neil De Grasse Tyson “The universe is under no obligation to make sense to us”

                      Also: “Get in the DeLorean Deidre, it’s time to kill Hitler”
                      So, would you say that Schrodinger was trying to push back against the interpretation of QM that was gaining traction back then? I’ll admit, if I think on it too long, it’s confusing.

                      Comment


                        #15
                        Originally posted by Deidre View Post
                        So, I get that Schrodinger came up with a thought experiment to disprove the common interpretation of quantum mechanics. Some have claimed that it wasn't so much an experiment, as an illustration. Nonetheless, we all know the gist of Schrodinger's cat. But, it isn't that the cat is both dead and alive (everyone typically agrees that it's a ridiculous position lol), it's the possibility of the cat being dead or alive until one observes its actual state, that Schrodinger was trying to illustrate. What do you think? And why can't the cat be the observer? ?

                        In a way, I disagree because if the cat is dead, it's dead whether or not I observe it, right? But, is Schrodinger basically saying that we should always caution towards believing that both states are possible...the cat could be dead, but he could be alive...and until we as the observers see it for ourselves, it's not a sure thing?


                        Its all just a bunch of garbage so they dont have to admit out loud they have no idea

                        The field equations should have been named after Maxwell, not Einstein, but they are basically just a set of equations with a whole bunch of 4x4 matrices in them, all things like singularities, wormholes, quantum entanglement, concepts of wave forms collapsing all come from the simplest solutions to these equations where you have to zero out everything not on that internal diagonal. Even just putting one value in one of those spaces where there is a zero and the solution becomes too complex to possibly ever work out because you would have to try and solve simultaneous partial differential equations


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                        So Schwardzschild and the concept of a singularity at the centre of a blackhole you have to zero out time, Ellis and the only solutions for a drainhole ( one way wormhole) and a wormhole ( a double drainhole) you have to zero out gravity. Schrodinger - there is no wave form in the first place for it to collapse, wave form is a too simply solution that is never going to exist in the real world. Quantum entanglement they are really just talking about the same field existing on the other side of the universe, no one gets excited and calls two iron filings around a magnet "spooky action at a distance" when they line up the same way.

                        E=mc2 is never written correctly, its really E = γmc2, γ can only equal 1 when relative velocity = speed of light, ie you zero out mass to get to the equation that tells you how much energy there is in the mass you just zeroed out. That is, it should always be written as a limit as v approaches c E= mc2 but can never equal mc2


                        Schrodinger thing is just a metaphor for we've worked out 99% of this thing, but the last 1% we maybe never can solve, so lets make up some dumb shit about a cat.
                        Last edited by Vanilla Gorilla; 07-18-2021, 01:12 AM.

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