Is Free Will an Illusion?

[Meliai]

Do humans actually have free will or are we all just a product of genetics and social and cultural conditioning?

When we make a decision, what is the underlying motivation? Do we decide because it is what we want, or because of the confluence of a variety of factors completely outside of our control? And if it is because it is what we want, *why* do we want it? Where do our desires actually come from? How many decisions do you actually make with conscious awareness and how many are decided on some deep subconscious level before you're even consciously aware you've made the decision?

Sam Harris on free will:
(and I would just like to say I typed the question where do desires come from BEFORE I read this quote haha)

"Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn't choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime - by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your desires come from?"

Discuss

[mallyboppa]

I read it as Free Wifi

[neonspectraltoast]

Insightful question, Meliai.

I tend to think the subject of free will is irrelevant, in that it can't depersonalize us. That is to say that if you say there's no free will or that there is free will, the situation remains exactly the same: we strive, we struggle, we make decisions, and we have irreducible personalities.

What is happening here, what always makes this question so convoluted, is a lack of appreciation of terms.

So I'll try to explain how I feel about "free will," which terminology I don't like, as it clouds the issue of personal self-actualization. (One shouldn't have to complicate themselves with such worries.)

There is a freedom in uniqueness, in vibrance. I could describe the Sun as "wild and free" if I was being poetic, for instance.

Pure logic doesn't always want to admit the validity of pure poetry, though. But yes, the sun is free in the sense that it is vibrant, it keeps shining outwards. Yet it is within the confines of the "other," the universe, and has no freedom to choose otherwise. (Though it be an assumption it would.)

And we are free in the sense that we are wholly unique and vibrant as well...in a poetic sense.

But we do have constrictions. Existing within a particular set of variants doesn't mean you aren't free, though. You can be free and be in prison.

Well, you can see how these terms get convoluted...

There also is a subconscious world that influences our behavior, and it's exactly that: Things go on, even interpersonal relationships between people, that we are not consciously aware of.

And it's not even subtle. Once you break your mind (as I have) it's quite loud, in fact.

But I believe we're free, simply for the poetry of the word "free." Tell yourself, "I'm free!" What does that entail? It entails that you're vibrant and beautiful, one-of-a-kind, and happy.

I'd love to discuss further, if anyone has any thoughts.

Though I believe in a block universe, where past, present, and future exist at once, everything fated and determined, I don't think this equates to "Determinism." As I often say, the universe like a record on a record player. But there is qualia as well, and particles popping into and out of existence...it could never ultimately be measured. It's a phantasm. A seemingly solid phantasm.

[Meliai]

There also is a subconscious world that influences our behavior, and it's exactly that: Things go on, even interpersonal relationships between people, that we are not consciously aware of.

yes, this is something I think about a lot.. I think particularly with our interactions with others, we are all mostly acting out patterns learned in childhood from the way our parents interacted with each other, with the world around them, with us.

And I think changing these behavioral patterns, for those lucky enough to realize them, takes more than conscious awareness. It takes subconscious reprogramming - because our subconscious is still going to take over 95% of the time. It has to be trained to make better decisions. Humans are habitual creatures. Change isn't a matter of choice, it is a matter of reprogramming habits.

[neonspectraltoast]

yes, this is something I think about a lot.. I think particularly with our interactions with others, we are all mostly acting out patterns learned in childhood from the way our parents interacted with each other, with the world around them, with us.

And I think changing these behavioral patterns, for those lucky enough to realize them, takes more than conscious awareness. It takes subconscious reprogramming - because our subconscious is still going to take over 95% of the time. It has to be trained to make better decisions. Humans are habitual creatures. Change isn't a matter of choice, it is a matter of reprogramming habits.

What I'm trying to also tell you, though, is that there is a natural environment we aren't aware of that surrounds us that impacts us. I know this sounds crazy, but souls (as I consider you and I) carry voices.

But that's neither here nor there. It isn't just that we have an alter-ego or underlying psyche, though, that makes up the subconscious realm.

That said, I think you have to consciously alter your subconscious. The brain rewires itself based on what you're cognizant of.

One thing I do, if I feel I'm wired to a real bad disposition, is just refamiliarize. It's like, you look out of your head, but imagine it's a camera, and you can shift from black and white to color, or watercolor, etc. Just latch on, even if momentarily, to seeing things in a positive light. Defy your whole disposition.

I don't know if everyone can do that, but it's easy for me...look for the most ethereal light.

What it also takes is philosophy. A liberating philosophy. I developed a whole logical philosophy to keep me from getting dragged down in the pits. It is possible.

[Audiogen]

I would classify myself as a compatibilist, maybe leaning more towards a type of weak determinism but I've read some of Harris' other ideas on the topic and I don't fully subscribe to his view on Determinism. I agree with determinism in the sense that I think we are ultimately bound by physical processes and probably most of our perception of choice is decided on a subconscious level due to social or cultural factors.

However, I disagree with the view when taken to it's logical conclusion, whereby choice is essentially a latent byproduct, like if all extraneous circumstances equal, choosing to eat a steak over salad tomorrow is necessarily dictated by deterministic factors, or violent criminals have no volition in their crimes.

I think our ability for abstraction, or ability to consider conditions strictly in the realm of ideas, leads me to consider free will a wild card in our predominantly determined environment. Whether that is an oddity of brain complexity or more of a gestalt brain phenomena, I'm not sure.

So basically I don't believe a mind exists out there separate from body but I also don't believe we are glorified automaton, compatibilist is probably the best description for that position I've read but I haven't explored the topic in awhile.

[Meliai]

I would classify myself as a compatibilist, maybe leaning more towards a type of weak determinism but I've read some of Harris' other ideas on the topic and I don't fully subscribe to his view on Determinism. I agree with determinism in the sense that I think we are ultimately bound by physical processes and probably most of our perception of choice is decided on a subconscious level due to social or cultural factors.

However, I disagree with the view when taken to it's logical conclusion, whereby choice is essentially a latent byproduct, like if all extraneous circumstances equal, choosing to eat a steak over salad tomorrow is necessarily dictated by deterministic factors, or violent criminals have no volition in their crimes.

I think our ability for abstraction, or ability to consider conditions strictly in the realm of ideas, leads me to consider free will a wild card in our predominantly determined environment. Whether that is an oddity of brain complexity or more of a gestalt brain phenomena, I'm not sure.

So basically I don't believe a mind exists out there separate from body but I also don't believe we are glorified automaton, compatibilist is probably the best description for that position I've read but I haven't explored the topic in awhile.

I think I am also a compatibilist.
I think free will is a possibility but one has to be willing to look deeply at themselves and develop an understanding of their motivations in order to go beyond social and cultural conditioning

This is something that comes up in eastern philosophy a lot, developing an awareness to the point where the chains of reality as you have been conditioned to perceive it begin to dissolve

What a lack of free will means in terms of criminal justice is one of the most interesting elements of the debate to me, kind of hesitant to go into it though because that could easily devolve into a political, rather than a philosophical debate.

But I guess i'll touch on my thoughts anyways lol..
I dont really believe serial killers make a conscious decision to do what they do, for example. Something went wrong in their brain at some point (which begs the question: what are we if not our brain? But that is maybe a topic for another thread haha)
I don't think anyone would make a conscious decision to do something so grotesque. Violent criminals are driven by subconscious reactions or desires, or some sort of physiological reason. Brain tumors. Extreme trauma and abuse in childhood which can effect the chemical makeup of the brain. Etc.

Petty crime as well...people generally commit petty crime because they were raised in an environment where it was normalized to an extent, or where their survival may have depended on it at some point. Or they're driven by addiction. Etc.

I dont think this absolves criminals of responsibility for their crimes, but I do think the criminal justice system would be far more compassionate if it were approached with this in mind

[neonspectraltoast]

The chains of reality don't dissolve. Then you're left knowing shit that no one else does and no one believes you.

[Audiogen]

What a lack of free will means in terms of criminal justice is one of the most interesting elements of the debate to me, kind of hesitant to go into it though because that could easily devolve into a political, rather than a philosophical debate.

But I guess i'll touch on my thoughts anyways lol..
I dont really believe serial killers make a conscious decision to do what they do, for example. Something went wrong in their brain at some point (which begs the question: what are we if not our brain? But that is maybe a topic for another thread haha)
I don't think anyone would make a conscious decision to do something so grotesque. Violent criminals are driven by subconscious reactions or desires, or some sort of physiological reason. Brain tumors. Extreme trauma and abuse in childhood which can effect the chemical makeup of the brain. Etc.

Petty crime as well...people generally commit petty crime because they were raised in an environment where it was normalized to an extent, or where their survival may have depended on it at some point. Or they're driven by addiction. Etc.

I dont think this absolves criminals of responsibility for their crimes, but I do think the criminal justice system would be far more compassionate if it were approached with this in mind

On the flip side, with the prospects of punishment or being brought to justice, we don't really know how many people the criminal justice system has dissuaded from committing crimes.

I don't have as optimistic a view of human nature as you, although I'm not like a Hobbes. I know serial killers often have fairly messed up childhoods or maladies which certainly may factor into their behavior but I don't think that applies to all of them and I'm sure there are examples of other people with just as messed up childhoods (short of Ed Gein) and they don't become serial killers. With how calculated some of them are, it's difficult for me to imagine that all of them are not conscious about what they are doing. I think at some point people confront morals and principles conceptually and some serial killers choose to reject them.


I take it you would lean toward free will being contingent on what I described as oddity in brain complexity then? Region(s) that could be overridden or negatively affected by something like a tumor or a brain defect and perhaps even sparsely present in some?

[Meliai]

On the flip side, with the prospects of punishment or being brought to justice, we don't really know how many people the criminal justice system has dissuaded from committing crimes.

I started to type the thought that it would be difficult to quantify if punishment is a deterrent, but recidivism rates are probably a good measure and the recidivism rate in the US where criminal justice is almost exclusively focused on punishment rather than rehabilitation, is 83% at 9 years after release which is insane

I also found this article which is interesting, it talks about the high rate of mental illness, brain injuries, and childhood trauma found in the US prison population

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/crime-and-punishment/201804/why-punishment-doesnt-reduce-crime

I take it you would lean toward free will being contingent on what I described as oddity in brain complexity then? Region(s) that could be overridden or negatively affected by something like a tumor or a brain defect and perhaps even sparsely present in some?

Well, sort of. I think people with an atypical brain makeup are perhaps more subject to the whims of the brain than neurotypical people

But I think it's very difficult for anyone, mentally healthy or not, to operate outside the various systems in which they've been raised.

[Meliai]

The chains of reality don't dissolve. Then you're left knowing shit that no one else does and no one believes you.

Why does it matter if anyone believes you?
reality is probably going to look different to anyone who looks beyond existing systems anyways. Your perception will never be someone else's perception.

Maybe that's why we've built such an entrenched social system and social hierarchy- because of how strange reality would be if we were all just acting from our own perceptions

[neonspectraltoast]

Yeah, but I'm telling you, Mel, it's a dangerous path. But yeah...well, in these dire times, you almost wanna prove it, but you don't. We need something and fast. We at least need to exclusively attune our perceptions to positive, creative influences, dark or light alike. Not just this passion numbing fodder they're dubbing "science." Good intentions pave the road...

[Audiogen]

I started to type the thought that it would be difficult to quantify if punishment is a deterrent, but recidivism rates are probably a good measure and the recidivism rate in the US where criminal justice is almost exclusively focused on punishment rather than rehabilitation, is 83% at 9 years after release which is insane

I also found this article which is interesting, it talks about the high rate of mental illness, brain injuries, and childhood trauma found in the US prison population

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/b...t-reduce-crime

That seems political, most all I've read from crime rates which have spiked from cities that have "Defunded the Police" I would consider as well.


I think we have a tendency to magnify past events with people like serial killers to explain their behavior and it seems to border on almost circular reasoning at times imo. The brain tumor or something physical like that is a much more compelling justification than that vast majority of people who just had a screwed up childhood.

[Din Djarin]

The chains of reality don't dissolve. Then you're left knowing shit that no one else does and no one believes you.

“If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.”

William Blake

[Din Djarin]

Actually should be put in the fav quotes thread

[neonspectraltoast]

The infinite is knowing; the end is to question, "Why?"

[neonspectraltoast]

I'm just trying to sound smart. I'm hopped up on coffee. Time for my pills maybe.

[Din Djarin]

Just because we are influenced by the subconscious, biological impulses and automated patterns does not mean there's no free will. Just because we do not always make use of our free will doesn't mean there is no free will.
Like, when you're tired you will be more prone to go by an automated process or routine than by doing something based on a conscious decision but at other times you will go with the latter by choice. Even if that conscious choice based on free will is also still influenced by automated thought processes, banal and basic needs or impulses etc. free will can still play a meaningful role.

[Meliai]

Just because we are influenced by the subconscious, biological impulses and automated patterns does not mean there's no free will. Just because we do not always make use of our free will doesn't mean there is no free will.
Like, when you're tired you will be more prone to go by an automated process or routine than by doing something based on a conscious decision but at other times you will go with the latter by choice. Even if that conscious choice based on free will is also still influenced by automated thought processes, banal and basic needs or impulses etc. free will can still play a meaningful role.

Not that I disagree
But just curious in context of all our automated subconscious processes, how exactly do you define free will - do you have any specific examples of where free will would come into play? Is every one of the hundreds of decision we make throughout the day guided by free will?

This morning I needed to go to the grocery store and I debated walking or taking my car. I went through a variety of pros and cons for each in my head but ultimately just took off on foot on a whim - I can't really explain why I finally decided to walk. Was this choice made with free will? If I had taken my car would that choice also have been guided by free will?

(I made the right choice by the way in case you were on the edge of your seat wondering. The walk felt great! )

What about bigger choices? People often choose the safer option because of fear. Is a choice made in fear a choice made freely?

But if they make the other choice, the scary choice, maybe because they're more motivated by adventure than fear, is this choice made freely? Are the decisions of the adventurous person more consciously made than the decisions of the fearful person?

or, maybe it isn't that they're motivated by adventure at all, maybe they just want this particular thing so much they don't let fear stop them.

But where did the desire come from in the first place. Do we consciously *choose* our desires?