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    Epistocracy

    So I was listening to the radio the other day, and some folks were being interviewed about their political preferences. The people were spouting some non-veiled racist bullshit about why Trump was the better candidate. They then interviewed some other people who were reciting some poorly thought out arguments about why Biden should be elected. No one seemed to have a deep understanding of what they were talking about, and they all appeared misguided.

    It got me thinking "fuck, these people are going to be voting in the presidential election, and their votes count exactly the same as someone well informed. What a disaster." Why should an uneducated racist get the same type of input as say, a professor of political science? (Obviously, there are reasons why).

    Anyway, I was exasperated and complained to a friend about this, and he mentioned a book he had read about the the idea of an epistocracy--a political system in which the opinions of the highly informed count more heavily then the opinions of the less informed. Here is what the author of the book, Jason Brennan, had to say to justify his ideas:

    "We know that an unfortunate side effect of democracy is that it incentivizes citizens to be ignorant, irrational, tribalistic, and to not use their votes in very serious ways. So this is an attempt to correct for that pathology while keeping what’s good about a democratic system.

    We have to ask ourselves what we think government is actually for. Some people think it has the value a painting has, which is to say that it’s symbolic. In that view, you might think, “We should have democracy because it’s a way of civilizing and expressing the idea that all of us have equal value.”

    There’s another way of looking at government, which is that it’s a tool, like a hammer, and the purpose of politics is to generate just and good outcomes, to generate efficiency and stability, and to avoid mistreating people. So if you think government is for that purpose, and I do, then you have to wonder if we should pick the form of government that best delivers the goods, whatever that might be."



    Anyway, I can think of a few arguments for and against this approach. But I would love to hear your thoughts.

    #2
    I think the biggest argument against it is a question: Who decides which knowledge is valuable and which isn't?

    Also, there is a relevant lyric from a nofx song:

    there's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
    political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
    majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
    sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

    Comment


      #3
      This is a tricky one. It undermines our version of democracy but it also makes a lot of sense. The big problem is tho, who gets to determine who is well informed and misinformed? This would also mean we'd need some kind of government branch to oversee what information gets out there. A body not only to regulate what information voters have access to, but also to determine who is well informed and who is not.

      Also, the people who think they are the most well informed are probably the least informed.

      I think it is a good idea I just don't see a realistic and impartial way of implementing it.

      I just wish we voted on policy and not names. I mean, if "Joe Biden" "Donald Trump" "Republican" and "Democrat" were removed from the equation, people would be forced to actually research and educate themselves, or simply sit out the election. The fact that you can vote straight democrat or straight republican concerns me. People are simply voting for a label.

      Comment


        #4
        Don't like it, seems like it's trending towards Fascism...

        From the Doctrine of Fascism:

        In rejecting democracy, Fascism rejects the absurd conventional lie of political equalitarianism, the habit of collective irresponsibility, the myth of felicity and indefinite progress.

        DEFINITION OF FASCISM AS REAL DEMOCRACY

        But if democracy be understood as meaning a regime in which the masses are not driven back to the margin of the State, and then the writer of these pages has already defined Fascism as an organized, centralized, authoritarian democracy.


        I don't think the "highly informed" always have the best interests of other people, not even for nefarious reasons necessarily, it's just difficult to relate.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by eggsprog View Post
          I think the biggest argument against it is a question: Who decides which knowledge is valuable and which isn't?

          Also, there is a relevant lyric from a nofx song:
          This came up in the podcast that I listened to. Brennan argued that there would be an array of informed voters that would represent values fairly equally--since even very educated people can look at the same information and reach different conclusions. He also said that some values are just objectively wrong (he gave the example of antisemitism).

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by everything bagel View Post
            This is a tricky one. It undermines our version of democracy but it also makes a lot of sense. The big problem is tho, who gets to determine who is well informed and misinformed? This would also mean we'd need some kind of government branch to oversee what information gets out there. A body not only to regulate what information voters have access to, but also to determine who is well informed and who is not.

            Also, the people who think they are the most well informed are probably the least informed.

            I think it is a good idea I just don't see a realistic and impartial way of implementing it.

            I just wish we voted on policy and not names. I mean, if "Joe Biden" "Donald Trump" "Republican" and "Democrat" were removed from the equation, people would be forced to actually research and educate themselves, or simply sit out the election. The fact that you can vote straight democrat or straight republican concerns me. People are simply voting for a label.
            He mentioned that there would need to be some sort of relatively objective test of knowledge.

            Which opens up another issue--who gets to decide which knowledge is important? Would the test be biased towards certain groups (ex white males)?

            And the ultimate question--are the potential flaws of this system larger and more dangerous than the flaws in democracy?

            Comment


              #7
              For something like this to work at all, we would first have to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to access higher education without undue hardship, otherwise the same inequities in our society would remain. This would be particularly important in the US, where tuition at the more prestigious schools is outrageously expensive.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by eggsprog View Post
                For something like this to work at all, we would first have to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to access higher education without undue hardship, otherwise the same inequities in our society would remain. This would be particularly important in the US, where tuition at the more prestigious schools is outrageously expensive.
                Interestingly--he noted that despite being more and more education on average, people aren't any more politically informed than they ever have been.

                But yes, agreed--we would need to make sure everyone was on a level playing field. One interesting suggestion was to pick 100 people at random from the population, and educate them enough to be the voters.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Youfreeme View Post
                  are the potential flaws of this system larger and more dangerous than the flaws in democracy?
                  I think depending on how it is handled, yes absolutely. But in rereading my post in your quote (not trying to sound like I'm some sort of political expert) maybe the abolition of the party system is the answer. Tho I have no idea what flaws would come with that. Could be disastrous. But it would prevent people from voting along party lines and force them to do a little research.

                  Another thing that I thought of... does information really matter? I know that sounds stupid so let me elaborate by using this very election as an example. I don't like Joe Biden. I don't support him. Of all the democrats running, he was the one I was least excited about. As someone who is socially liberal (you do you bruh and let me do me, and we will get along fine) but governmentally and regulatory conservative, I'm probably most aligned with Jo Jorgensen out of the people still in the race. But I didn't vote for her. Of all the candidates who jumped into this shitshow that meant something to me, Andrew Yang stood out. I was a hardcore Yang supporter and I was heartbroken when he dropped out of the race. I could have voted for him as a write in candidate. I didn't.

                  I voted for Biden.

                  I voted for Biden because I couldn't vote against Trump. A vote for Yang or Jorgensen would go nowhere, but a vote for Biden would get Trump out. So, since you can't vote out sitting politicians, all you can do is vote in their opposition. So what does information really matter? I voted for Biden because he isn't Trump. That's our system. I'm not proud of it. I know I want Trump gone, but that's not an option on the ballot.

                  It really seems like our system was designed with the uninformed voter in mind. Rather than challenge us to educate ourselves, it hand delivers a "this or that" choice that we can make without having to think

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Youfreeme View Post

                    Interestingly--he noted that despite being more and more education on average, people aren't any more politically informed than they ever have been.

                    But yes, agreed--we would need to make sure everyone was on a level playing field. One interesting suggestion was to pick 100 people at random from the population, and educate them enough to be the voters.
                    A professor of mine wrote a book about something similar.

                    Here is a description from the introduction:

                    This book focuses on one way to strengthen our political system, to increase its legitimacy, by forcing governments to, in effect, listen to “the people.” It makes a case for the creation of permanent citizens’ assemblies (CAs). These assemblies would consist of groups of ordinary adults, an equal number of men and women, chosen at random from the population, from among those who are willing and able to participate. They would be charged with examining important public issues and recommending ways to address those issues.
                    (The ebook version can be downloaded for free: https://www.rowmaninternational.com/media/1767/pca.pdf). Now I feel like a salesperson


                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by everything bagel View Post
                      I think depending on how it is handled, yes absolutely. But in rereading my post in your quote (not trying to sound like I'm some sort of political expert) maybe the abolition of the party system is the answer. Tho I have no idea what flaws would come with that. Could be disastrous. But it would prevent people from voting along party lines and force them to do a little research.

                      Another thing that I thought of... does information really matter? I know that sounds stupid so let me elaborate by using this very election as an example. I don't like Joe Biden. I don't support him. Of all the democrats running, he was the one I was least excited about. As someone who is socially liberal (you do you bruh and let me do me, and we will get along fine) but governmentally and regulatory conservative, I'm probably most aligned with Jo Jorgensen out of the people still in the race. But I didn't vote for her. Of all the candidates who jumped into this shitshow that meant something to me, Andrew Yang stood out. I was a hardcore Yang supporter and I was heartbroken when he dropped out of the race. I could have voted for him as a write in candidate. I didn't.

                      I voted for Biden.

                      I voted for Biden because I couldn't vote against Trump. A vote for Yang or Jorgensen would go nowhere, but a vote for Biden would get Trump out. So, since you can't vote out sitting politicians, all you can do is vote in their opposition. So what does information really matter? I voted for Biden because he isn't Trump. That's our system. I'm not proud of it. I know I want Trump gone, but that's not an option on the ballot.

                      It really seems like our system was designed with the uninformed voter in mind. Rather than challenge us to educate ourselves, it hand delivers a "this or that" choice that we can make without having to think
                      The whole idea of a president doesn't really make sense to me. The fact that you could have a Republican president yet have the Democrats control both houses of congress seems very flawed. Couldn't the president just refuse to sign any legislation and bring the government to a halt for four years?

                      In the Canadian parliamentary system, the Prime Minister is the leader of the party that forms government. That means that they either received a majority of the votes (a "majority government") or a plurality of the votes (a "minority government"). With a minority government, they need to rely on the votes of at least one other party to pass any legislation (and to stay in power and not trigger another election), so they are incentivised to work with other parties.

                      That said, our first-past-the-post system is flawed, in that 30% of people in my riding (basically the equivalent of a congressional district) could vote Liberal, 30% NDP, and 40% Conservative and the Conservatives would be the only one to have an MP go to parliament. Trudeau and the Liberals campaigned in 2015 on a promise of electoral reform ("This will be the last unfair election in Canada!"), but once in power they decided that they would rather not.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by eggsprog View Post

                        The whole idea of a president doesn't really make sense to me. The fact that you could have a Republican president yet have the Democrats control both houses of congress seems very flawed. Couldn't the president just refuse to sign any legislation and bring the government to a halt for four years?

                        In the Canadian parliamentary system, the Prime Minister is the leader of the party that forms government. That means that they either received a majority of the votes (a "majority government") or a plurality of the votes (a "minority government"). With a minority government, they need to rely on the votes of at least one other party to pass any legislation (and to stay in power and not trigger another election), so they are incentivised to work with other parties.

                        That said, our first-past-the-post system is flawed, in that 30% of people in my riding (basically the equivalent of a congressional district) could vote Liberal, 30% NDP, and 40% Conservative and the Conservatives would be the only one to have an MP go to parliament. Trudeau and the Liberals campaigned in 2015 on a promise of electoral reform ("This will be the last unfair election in Canada!"), but once in power they decided that they would rather not.
                        It's supposed to be about checks and balances. How vetoes and blue/red waves factor into that, I'm not sure. Truthfully, representative government as a whole doesn't make sense to me. Half of Americans identify as male and half as female. So we're 50-50 0n that. The average median age in the US is something like 38 or 39. While white people are the majority, about 40% of the American population is a person of color. That all means to me that the average American is a 40 year old man or woman who has a pretty good chance of being a person of color. And our "representative" government is a bunch of 80 year old white guys.

                        We vote people in who we hope push policy that reflect our values rather than voting for policy itself. That's why I love propositions on the ballots. A simple yes/no determines policy for us. Why can't it all work that way? Imagine if the house and senate existed only to frame what was going to be on the ballot, and the president was only there as the official ballot counter. It gets rid of all corruption and power and makes us a true democracy

                        So much like the Canadian system where the 40% get representation over the 60% our electoral college can screw the average voter too. Despite having 50 states, a candidate might only have to win 5 of them to win the election. Elecotral votes are based on population. So win California, New York, Texas, Ohio, Illinois and Florida, and you're done. It's over. You've won. If you're from Wyoming or Idaho or somewhere, oh well, you don't count.

                        So yes, representative American government... big city elite white male boomers trying to decide how to tell brown millennials how to live. Sounds legit

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by everything bagel View Post
                          We vote people in who we hope push policy that reflect our values rather than voting for policy itself. That's why I love propositions on the ballots. A simple yes/no determines policy for us. Why can't it all work that way? Imagine if the house and senate existed only to frame what was going to be on the ballot, and the president was only there as the official ballot counter. It gets rid of all corruption and power and makes us a true democracy
                          I think this comes back to the idea of epistocracy though, because why should I trust the general (voting) public any more than elected officials? In theory, elected officials are paid by us to spend the time researching and considering different topics and then voting based on what they think the best option is. Obviously it doesn't work like that in a lot of places, but I don't think that replacing it with a system of direct democracy works for a lot of issues.

                          Everyone in Alberta might vote to remove all regulations around bitumen extraction in the tar sands because it will result in more money and more jobs, even if it means that the environment is absolutely destroyed and future generations will suffer. In theory, elected representatives should consider all of these factors when making a decision. In reality, a lot of them just aren't that smart and/or are most concerned about re-election and/or are corrupt.

                          I think that referendums/propositions make more sense at a local/municipal level, where the people making the decisions are more likely to be directly affected by them.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Audiogen View Post
                            Don't like it, seems like it's trending towards Fascism...

                            From the Doctrine of Fascism:





                            I don't think the "highly informed" always have the best interests of other people, not even for nefarious reasons necessarily, it's just difficult to relate.
                            I don't know why I didn't see your post until now.

                            Interesting. Buuuuuuutttt... is the inability of the highly informed to relate to other people any different than the rich elite government officials inability to relate to other people?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by eggsprog View Post

                              I think this comes back to the idea of epistocracy though, because why should I trust the general (voting) public any more than elected officials? In theory, elected officials are paid by us to spend the time researching and considering different topics and then voting based on what they think the best option is. Obviously it doesn't work like that in a lot of places, but I don't think that replacing it with a system of direct democracy works for a lot of issues.

                              Everyone in Alberta might vote to remove all regulations around bitumen extraction in the tar sands because it will result in more money and more jobs, even if it means that the environment is absolutely destroyed and future generations will suffer. In theory, elected representatives should consider all of these factors when making a decision. In reality, a lot of them just aren't that smart and/or are most concerned about re-election and/or are corrupt.

                              I think that referendums/propositions make more sense at a local/municipal level, where the people making the decisions are more likely to be directly affected by them.
                              Yeah, it's all messy. I can't really disagree with any of that, but still. I feel it could be done better.

                              Meanwhile this is the most civil and polite political thread I've ever seen online

                              Comment

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