American Socialism

[tumbling.dice]

I despise Trump, I want to be clear on that. However, the Trump campaign did quite well courting Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants for their votes. The main talking point was to paint Biden, or more specifically Democrats, as socialists. Cuban and Venezuelans know something about that particular topic. So they rejected that message and voted Trump.

What do these immigrants know about socialism that, apparently, U.S. socialists don't understand?

[6-eyed]

Immigrants from socialism have life experiences with an economic system that American socialists lack. That’s all

[Jessica]

Immigrants from socialism have life experiences with an economic system that American socialists lack. That’s all

i think we were all hoping someone would tell us about that experience without making us watch a youtube video

[Rev J]

Where are you from again Din? Pretty much most of Europe, Australia, Scandinavia, and Canada are Socialist countries so.....

[Din Djarin]

Rev J the pearl of civilisation: the Netherlands

[Rev J]

That's what got pointed out to me later. Like I said your view of Socialism and the "Left" in the United States is different because of European Culture. I'm sure that to you hearing that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are "Radical Leftists" is as funny to you as it is to me.

[Din Djarin]

I despise Trump, I want to be clear on that. However, the Trump campaign did quite well courting Cuban and Venezuelan immigrants for their votes. The main talking point was to paint Biden, or more specifically Democrats, as socialists. Cuban and Venezuelans know something about that particular topic. So they rejected that message and voted Trump.

What do these immigrants know about socialism that, apparently, U.S. socialists don't understand?

Those immigrants don't have an objective opinion on socialism in general, but generations of bad experiences with corruption and dictators under socialist regimes. They're scared something like that would happen in their new country as well if socialism would become a (more) intrincite part of the system (it kinda already is intertwined in it but ok). The unfortunate thing is that by voting for Trump they might not get socialist corruption and authoritarian leadership to an unfavourable degree, but its the best chance on getting a corrupted system and weird authoritarian leadership on the short term.
Corruption and dictators give any political system a bad name, if the problem is conflated with, or mainly attributed to, the system.

[Karen J]

What do these immigrants know about socialism that, apparently, U.S. socialists don't understand?

They've been in countries that took the concept too far.

[Meliai]

It's no different than the brainwashing of Americans against any little social program because, oh noes, it could be socialism.

Their experiences with communism are true and valid, before anyone attacks me for saying that...but they're still just as susceptible as anyone else to being tricked into believing a center right politician like Biden is going to usher in the dawn of socialism in the US

[Din Djarin]

Going for less center right politicians like Sanders or Warren would likely benefit them even more (depending if they actually could get anything done without the political opposition barring their efforts)

[lode]

Meliai Nah. I think it’s bad advertising for Democrats. Rather than just use different words than Democratic socialism, they try to lecture people about how they really don’t understand.

The blue team sucks at PR, and can’t make it all up by having better policy if they can’t advertise away good enough to give away free stuff.

It’s ya boy Bernie’s fault.

[Din Djarin]

Was Bernie in charge of the advertising?

[lode]

Din Djarin Bernie was the ideological head of the left, and was responsible for Democratic Socialism being thrown around like a drunk for the past year.

Republicans woulda thrown around socialism anyway, but the blue team wouldn’t have had to run against it without him. Just ditch the label, it’s less intellectual and more visceral to Florida a swing states largest demographic.

[Din Djarin]

thanks for explaining

[Meliai]

lode
Agree the label of democratic socialist is damaging.
Disagree the Democrats wouldn't have had to run against it without Bernard using the label.

Obama had to run against it and he's another center right moderate

Agree Democrats are terrible and ineffective at selling themselves and their policies.
but I think moreso, Republicans are very effective at using communism for the purpose of propaganda. And have been effective at it since the red scare, yo

[tumbling.dice]

Obama is center-right? Explain.

[Din Djarin]

I read right over that, pretty sure she ment center left!

[Meliai]

Nah I meant center right

American politics are heavily skewed to the right. In Europe someone like Bernie Sanders would be a left of center moderate for the most part. (Would you say you agree with that, asmo?)

And maybe I should rephrase. Ideologically Obama may be a left of center moderate but like most Dems,he governed from the right because that's just how it works in the US. Democrats are generally spineless and move further and further right to meet the demands of Republicans.

I mean, his healthcare policy was lifted from a Republican and largely favored insurers. Obamacare was the move of a corporatist Democrat.

Maybe some of his banking regulations could be considered "left," but regulating predatory industries to avoid financial collapse really shouldn't be considered a left wing or right wing ideal

[Din Djarin]

I agree with that its skewed more to the right in the US, but Sanders would here neither be seen as close to the center. He's as left as established politician can get :P But yes, where a lot of Americans can't help but seeing him as so extreme left he's basically useless, a politician like him would be commonly accepted in our political landscape.
So.. moderate perhaps, but not left of center moderate. Do i make sense? :P

[Undies]

6-eyed

Hmm.. sorry ? I could go find a really long article for everyone to read instead

personally i would prefer that. i come to a forum to read people's posts, not follow outside links. but if i'm going to do something beyond reading a post, this is my ranking system from mostly likely to least likely:

• follow article link at the end of a post describing the poster's opinions on the subject
• follow article link with no context
• watch video in post describing the poster's opinions on the subject
• watch video with no context

honestly, i'm not super likely to do any of those things. but we're looking at maybe 20% at the top of the list, and probably <1% at the bottom.

[Din Djarin]

It also depends on the accompanied content of the poster who shares the article link. Some people, and six is a prime example of it, have little substantial to offer themselves. They use outside stuff like youtube vids or articles to cover that up.
If you notice, almost all times 6-eyed tries to engage us on topics like socialism he's going in circles with the same stuff: refuting good questions with jokes and stereotypes and generalisations. There's no insightful convo possible with him on this subject it seems. We all know we tried and gave him the benefit of the doubt countless of times.. :P

[Undies]

Din Djarin *autistic screeching*

[Youfreeme]

The worst:
Person 1: *Insert sensationalist and unsupported opinion*
Person 2: Asks simple clarifying question.
Person 1: "HeY you SHEEPLE. Why don'T YOU TAKe a MINUTE to RESEarch stUFF on yoUR own. I Can't DO THE thinking FOR YOU. Here's a youtube video that doesn't answer your question AT ALL."

Like...why post.

[Rev J]

It's funny I was going to start a thread on here about the "Global Political Spectrum" because so much of what the Trump supporting right says is absolute bullshit. For example calling Biden and Harris "Radical Democrats" or "Socialists" or even "Left Leaning" is preposterous from a global perspective. For example British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is considered conservative but if you compare Biden, Harris, and Trump they are all to the right of Johnson. Here's an article from the BBC to illustrate the point by comparing American and British Politicians:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51470131

C/S,
Rev J

[6-eyed]

Haha even the CEO of the most pretentiously progressive corporation on earth, Whole Foods, says socialism impoverishes every society it touches!

[6-eyed]

Where are you from again Din? Pretty much most of Europe, Australia, Scandinavia, and Canada are Socialist countries so.....

LOL no they're not. Many of them rank in line with the United States in their level of capitalistic market freedom.

Din is from the Netherlands, and his country is LESS socialistic than the United States